18 May 1908

(After Zuhr Prayer in Lahore)

Answers to Some Questions of Professor Wragge

Professor [Clement Lindley] Wragge, whose meeting and question and answer session with the Promised Messiah (as) has been published previously, again met with the Promised Messiah (as) on 18 May 1908 on the motivation of and through the person of Hazrat Mufti Muhammad Sadiq. After exchanging some niceties, the following question and answer session took place.

Question: What is your belief about God? Is He finite or is He omnipresent, and does He have a physical persona and emotions?

Answer: I do not believe God to be finite, nor can God be finite. We know about God this much that just as He is in the heavens, so is He on the earth. There are two forms of relationships that He has. One is the general relationship that exists with all creation. The other is the special relationship which exists with special people who, after purifying their own selves, advance in their love for Him. He, then, becomes so near to them as if He speaks from within them. This is a wonderful thing about Him that despite being far, He is near, and in spite of being near, He is yet far. He is extremely close, but yet we cannot say that He is near as one body is near to another body. He is above all, yet we cannot say that anything is underneath Him. He is more manifest than everything, and yet He is profoundly profound. The degree to which a person purifies himself is the very same degree to which he gains awareness of Him.

The Promised Messiah (as) continued:

By emotions, he probably means that why has God burdened man with the weight of the Shariah and why has He bound him down with the constraints of the lawful and the unlawful? So, it should be known that the fact is that God is Quddus [Holy] to the most perfect degree and, on account of His purity, He does not like impurity. And as He is Merciful and Beneficent, He does not desire man to embrace those paths that lead to his destruction. So, these are His emotions, if you will, on the basis of which the system of religion is established.

Question: Does God have any shape?

Answer: When He is not finite, how can He have a shape?

Question: While God is love, just, and fair, then why do we witness in the world that some things have been made by Him to serve as food for others? If love and justice, or equity and mercy, are His innate attributes, then why has He endowed some of His creation with the desire and the ability to devour others while they are both equally His creation?

Answer: When the word love is used for God, it would be a grave error to conceptualize it as human love. The word love as it is applied to human beings and its import as it is understood in the context of human relations, cannot be applied to God at all, nor is its meaning and purport truly befitting for God. Man has the attributes of love and anger, but the connotation that comes to our mind when using them in the human context cannot be applicable to God at all. This is a mistake. It has been ingrained in human nature that when he loves someone, he suffers grief by separation from that person. A mother loves her child and what a shock she receives and how much pain and grief she suffers if her child gets separated from her.

Similarly, when a person is angry with someone, he experiences its shock and impact initially within himself, as if he is punishing his own self at the same time as he punishes the other person. Anger is a suffering that has its impact first on the person himself. A kind of bitterness is created in the mind supplanting peace and tranquillity. However, God is immune from all this. Therefore, it can be clearly concluded from this that the way we use these words for man and the meaning it holds in human relations, cannot be used for God nor can they be true for Him. Therefore, I do not like these words.

This application has been created by those who perceive God to be like a human being. God is Holy. The bond with Him is ever on the increase when one acts in compliance with His will. The words of love and anger can be used for God but only in the metaphoric sense.

It should be understood that this world is an elaborate operation for the management of which God Almighty has appointed the current organizational structure out of His perfect wisdom, and it is operating under this system. However, such words are not truly applicable to this system. The word love has a connotation of suffering and tenderness. If it is assumed that God is love and He has the attribute of anger as well (with human experience as reference), we would have to assume at the same time that God, too, experiences some kind of distress, sorrow, and grief. However, such imperfections cannot be imputed to God.

Question: This, I have understood. But I wish to inquire as to why God has destined that the weak should be subservient to the mighty or become its food and remain subservient to it?

Answer: I have just explained that we cannot imagine God’s attributes of love, mercy, and wrath to be like the attributes as they exist in human beings. To conceptualize that God has experiences like that of a human being is a grave mistake. This is a vast system of God that He has created as it is. A human being cannot encroach this system beyond his own limits. It is not proper that man should find a way to question everything being intrusive about the very complex and intricate wisdom of God.

This world is a limited world. God has set up a vast realm to follow this one wherein He has desired and promised that true and everlasting prosperity will be awarded. Every suffering that exists in this world will be redressed and compensated in the other realm. Any shortcoming that is found in this world will be made whole in the next world.

As for the sorrow, hardship, grief, and anguish, they have to be experienced by the ordinary and the elite alike. These were essential and necessary for the functioning of the system of this world. If one takes a broad look, it becomes obvious that no one is free from suffering. Every creation has to partake a share thereof according to its status, in one way or another. If an eagle preys on sparrows and birds; the lions, tigers, and wolves can devour the children of human beings. Snakes and scorpions etc. also cause distress.

In short, this process is ongoing, and no one is exempt from it. However, for its reparation and recompense, God has appointed another world. This is why in the Holy Quran God is also described as  مٰلِکِ یَوْمِ الدِّیْنِ1. It may be that man has a pleasant living, but it is possible that birds and beasts have an even more pleasant living than him. This world is a world of trials, and the Hereafter is designed to provide answers. There are hardships that have been placed in this world, but God has promised happiness in the next world. If someone still has objections as to why this was done and why this was not done, the answer is that God does have sovereignty and ownership after all. He did as He desired. No one has the latitude and right to criticize His actions.

The second point that is worthy of attention is that since human sufferings are greater than the suffering of animals, human reward will also be greater than that of animals. Human sufferings are of two kinds. One is the suffering due to a shariah [religious law] and the other is the suffering due to fate and destiny. In suffering due to fate and destiny, man and animal are co-sharers and almost comparable. If animals die at the hands of humans, then humans die at the hands of animals as well. Similarly, in other sufferings they also share a kind of commonality.

However, in the hardships of shariah, there is nothing common between animals and humans. Dictates of the shariah are like a knife that slides over the throat of man, but animals are not held accountable for it. The constraints of the shariah are like a death that man has to bring upon himself. By considering all these matters together, it would be clear that human sufferings are far greater than the sufferings of animals.

The third thing worth remembering is that human senses are very sharp. Man has a much greater ability to feel. Animals or plants, on the other hand, have much less feelings. This is also why animals have not been endowed with greater intellect. Awareness comes from intellect. As animals have very little intellect and awareness, they live in a kind of state of intoxication. Feelings are much more relevant to humans. These faculties are of such lower level in animals as if they are non-existent. Therefore, animals have much less sense or feeling of these sufferings and it is possible that on some occasions they do not even feel them at all.

Now, one should ponder as to who has the greater burden of these sufferings in the world? Is it humans or animals? It is obvious that humans get a much bigger share of these hardships of the world as compared to animals.

Question: I have understood what you have said. Now I wish to inquire if you believe that animals would also have some recompense in the next world?

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said: ‘Yes, I do believe that all would be compensated for their worldly hardships, and reparation will be made for their suffering and hardships.’

Question: The necessary implication of this is that we should believe that the animals we kill are alive and not dead.

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said: ‘Of course. It is essential to note that they have not been annihilated. Their soul remains. They are not really dead. Rather, they, too, are alive.’

Question: It is written in the Bible that Adam or let it be said thus, the first human being, was born in Jehun Sehun and that that was his homeland. So then are the people in different parts of the world such as America and Australia etc., the progeny of that Adam?

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said:

I do not believe this, nor do I follow the Torah in this matter that this world had its beginning six or seven thousand years ago with the birth of Adam, and that there was nothing before that as if God was idle. Nor do I propose that the entire human race which is present in different regions of the world at this time, is the progeny of that same last Adam. I believe that the human race was present even before this Adam as is evident from the words of the Holy Quran. God said that:

اِنِّیْ جَاعِلٌ فِی الْاَرْضِ خَلِیْفَۃً2

Khalifah means ‘Successor’. From this it becomes clear that the creation existed even before Adam. Therefore, I cannot say if people of America and Australia etc. are from the progeny of this last Adam or from the progeny of some other Adam.

A saying of Hazrat Muhy-ud-Din ibn Arabi relates very much to your question. He writes [about a vision] that: ‘I went for Hajj and there I met a person who I thought was Adam. I asked him if he, indeed, was Adam? He replied, “Which Adam you are asking about? There have been thousands of Adams.”’

Question: Do you believe in evolution? Meaning, do you believe that man has evolved from an inferior state to a superior state? It kept advancing first from being a snake and scorpion etc. to become a monkey and then evolved from the monkey to become a human being. Moreover, when did the soul come into existence?

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said:

I do not believe that man was a monkey at some point in time, but then, gradually, its tail came off and it also lost the fur, and he became human through successive steps. This is a claim and the burden of proof lies upon its claimant. He should bring forth a monkey that should gradually evolve into a human being.

How can I believe in such unsubstantiated stories and fables? I do believe that there have been many Adams. What we observe every day in the prevailing circumstances, is that a human being is born from a human being. No one has ever seen a man born from a monkey nor a monkey born from a man. This is a fictional story. A species is always born from its own species. God has put His law right in front of our eyes: a donkey comes from a donkey, a horse from a horse, and a monkey from a monkey. If someone claims otherwise that a human being is born from a monkey as well, he should present the proof for his claim. To assert that it could have happened, means nothing. Conjecture is not enough.

Allah the Exalted has given us this observation as evidence in support of our claim. Those who say otherwise should present some clear evidence. Mere conjectures and claims don’t prove anything.

The soul is a created thing. God brings it into being also from this same physical matter. (I have discussed this at length in my latest book, Chashma-e-Ma‘arifat.) The human soul exists within the human seed itself in an innate and concealed form. It develops with it gradually and becomes evident towards the end of the fourth and the beginning of the fifth month with a manifest change and development, as is mentioned by Allah the Exalted in His Holy Word:

ثُمَّ اَنْشَاْنٰہُ خَلْقًا اٰخَرَ3

It is not true, as claimed by the Aryas, that the soul is also—like God—eternal. This belief raises so many questions, that God no longer remains God at all. The soul is a most subtle essence that is born and goes on developing mysteriously with the conception of man. For example, consider the fruit of a fig tree. When it is raw, it has incomplete but living insects in it. As soon as it ripens, these insects can be seen moving about till they eventually fly once they acquire wings. Besides it, there are fruits of many other trees that provide similar observations.

In short, I have proof for my claim. A proven reality cannot be denied. These fruits have a certain type of essence within them, which matures and develops with the growth and development of the fruit.

Question: The followers of spiritualism believe that life came from the moon and intellect from mars—that the moon was part of the earth; that, in the beginning, the earth was very soft and a piece of it flew off and became the moon; that, in fact, life originated from the earth itself. From here it went to the moon and then it descends from the moon into man. What do you believe regarding this matter?

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said:

I believe in the effects of the moon, the sun, and the planets. Man benefits from them. They affect a child even in the womb of his mother. This is not against the Shariah and this is why I have no objection in accepting them. The effect of moonlight upon plants is clearly evident. They become plump and sweet on account of it. Sometimes people have heard noises of pomegranates cracking, which occurs under the influence of moonlight. Anything beyond this, which is complicated and unproven, I am not ready to accept it. It is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran that the moon, the sun, and all the planets are useful servants of man and beneficial. And there are benefits for man centered in them.

Therefore, I see no harm in accepting that—as we benefit from plants, so do we benefit from the planets as well. I am also willing to accept that intellect has a connection with Mars if it can be proven.

Upon hearing this, the worthy professor said, ‘I believed that there is a great deal of conflict between science and religion, as is generally acknowledged by religious scholars, but you have resolved this conflict altogether.’

The Promised Messiah (as) said:

This is exactly what my mission is and this is what I have been proving that there is absolutely no conflict between science and religion. Rather, religion is in complete accord with science. And no matter how much science advances, it will never be able to show that the teachings of the Holy Quran and the principles of Islam are false.

Question: The thing that is found in flies and other lower types of animals, what should it be called?

Answer: The soul is of three types: the soul of plants, the soul of animals, the soul of human beings. I do not believe these three to be equal. Among these, only the human soul is the inheritor of true life and comprehending all excellences. The plant and animal soul also possesses a kind of life, but it cannot equal the human soul, nor can it attain such ranks, nor can it attain equality with the human soul in excellences.

I do not deem it proper to enter the debate about the subtle similarities it may have. It is possible that in some very specific attributes these souls may have some similarities with the human soul, but just as there is an obvious variance and difference physically between man and them, there is also a spiritual difference with them.

Nevertheless, it has even been accepted that there is a kind of awareness in some plants. If a bamboo tree is planted under a roof, it changes direction when it reaches a foot or two from the roof, it would change its direction and start to grow in a different direction. There is another botanical plant called ‘touch me not’ in the Punjab. It shrinks as soon as it is touched by a human. These things are mentioned in older and reputed books of natural sciences and are also proven by experience. However, one should not pursue such things too much. How appropriate is the couplet:

تو کار زمین را نکو ساختی
کہ با آسمان نیز پرداختی

Have you managed to set aright all worldly affairs,
That now you have turned your attention to heavenly matters?

To squander time by indulging into the investigation of the minutest of details of these matters is not appropriate.

Question: One day I went to the church. There, the priest said in his lecture that, ‘Man is a very insignificant creature and a filthy worm. It falls lower and lower on a daily basis and is not even fit to make progress. That is indeed why God gave His only Son by way of expiation to save him from sin and for his salvation.’

However, I know that man can make progress in virtue. At this time if this child of mine does something wrong due to ignorance, after a while, with more wisdom and knowledge, he will realize on his own that this was a bad deed. He will abandon it and do good. What is your belief in this matter?

Answer: The Promised Messiah (as) said: ‘Man is virtuous, and can perform virtuous deeds. He has been given the faculties to make progress. Man can attain salvation by making progress in piety.’

Question: These people [Christians] say that a person can do all the good deeds in the world, but he is ruined unless he believes in the Atonement through Christ. What do you say in this matter?

Answer: A person needs action and effort. There is no need for the Atonement. The spiritual system is akin to the physical system. In the physical system, consider the example of a farmer. With great effort he prepares the land, sows the seed, and waters it. Does he need any atonement? No! He needs hard work and action. I do not believe at all that there is no way for salvation except through Atonement. In fact, Atonement is an obstacle and an obstruction in the path of human progress.

Purity means that a person should not succumb to his carnal passions that want him to turn away from God and indulge in his selfish desires, and that he should try to make his conduct correspond to the pleasure of God so much so that he utters no word and commits no deed except that it be with the pleasure of God.

Allah is Holy and Pure. He desires that man should tread the path that is in accord with His attributes. He is Merciful and expects man to be merciful. He is Beneficent and expects to see beneficence in man. The attributes of God are manifest in the law of nature. We see that physically this world has existed for a very long time. He has always provided everyone with food, water, clothing, light, etc. and all the other essential requirements and human needs. His attributes of Mercifulness and Graciousness and the demands of His other marvellous attributes have always sustained His creation. Thus, what God desires is to make man a reflection of His attributes.

After this, the professor and the lady thanked the Promised Messiah (as) and said, ‘We are thankful that you allowed us the honour of this conversation and made a valuable contribution to our knowledge. Our time was well spent.’4